Techrights/Boycottnovell – Bane or boon? An experience

Yesterday I was browsing through  the internet when I came across this link with the quote

“Microsoft has pushed DirectX into Intel’s silicon,” explained to us a reader

Can there be a limit on sensationalism? Dr Roy cannot escape his responsibilities by quoting misleading facts. Now, instead of cribbing all over, I headed to their IRC channel and met schestowitz and explained him the case. He did agree that that quote is not exactly true. Still that article is not edited to reflect the truth.

Roy was very polite and patient while I expressed my opinions, which is actually a good thing. Since it was a weekend and I could not go out due to some personal reason, I decided to stay on the channel just to know their real motives.

Microsoft employees are devils

This is a common belief that Microsoft employees are working day and night to destroy the world. Arn’t all the policy decisions taken by the top execs.  How many of the employees actually nod everytime Ballmer says Linux is cancer? Probably physically yes, they do nod. How many care?

Then MinceR jumped in and started proposing that they are evil/unethical people. I tried my best to explain that they need to earn their bread and butter. A vast majority of the software programmers don’t care about FOSS ideologies nor Microsoft’s ideologies. For them employment is a contract – you pay me, I work for you. Every person has a family to feed and a life to live. Social and peer pressure is also a factor why people want to work for Microsoft/Google/Yahoo etc. The dream of a better future is also a reason. I don’t paint every Microsoft employee as a devil.

Name calling is nothing new on #techrights/#boycottnovell , even I got flared, but I ignore those comments. It never came to my mind that some people think they have a right to be not polite. A strange right I never heard of.

Tobacco Industry

Roy thinks that tobacco industry is responsible for people’s death. I don’t disagree 100% as these industry cannot be completely absolved of their responsibilities. If people smoke and die, isn’t it the person’s fault. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. You cannot drop a nuclear bomb somewhere and blame nuclear technology for the devastation. Lastly remember that tobacco industry works only because we consume tobacco. It is a simple demand-supply equation.

I was even advised to go and read the principles of Gandhi(Ghandhi), which is strange since I was born and brought up in the country of Gandhi. If you want to take a page out of Gandhi’s struggle, look at civil disobedience, esp the Dandi March. He never needed to abuse or spread violence for achieving his target. Civil disobedience in FOSS world is to use FOSS products exclusively. Gandhi even called off Civil Disobedience when violence started occurring.

David Nielsen

So there is a common understanding that David being abused was good for the whole world.  Look at the statement which David got

Matthew Woehlke: I’m going to guess a lot of that “disrespectful personal mail” revolves around the use of mono? And why shouldn’t it?

So there is a clarification that disrespecting is a right. There is also an explanation that this isn’t a harsh reply.

If this wasn’t enough, then you can even find out of context cooked-up statements like

MinceR once again, m4n1sh explains that verbal abuse is the greatest crime one can commit
MinceR presumably right ahead of copyright infringement. :>
MinceR murder is way behind

I have no clue how this all comparisons were made or I ever used murderer and copyright infringement ever. By the way nothing special, this is expected.

At that moment it was only sebsebseb who was actually talked rationally. He did explain his stand and took the pains to read the backlogs before discussing further.

Identica

As I am not on identi.ca, so sebsebseb told me “People on identi.ca don’t like omgubuntu“. Actually I don’t find any reason to be on identi.ca. Just because it runs FOSS? Identi.ca is the smaller brother of twitter which lacks wit and sarcasm. There is no humour in any dents. Twitter community rocks. identi.ca community needs to improve themselves. StatusNet software for running identi.ca is great, but that hardly matters if you don’t have a good community.

I wanted to pass some links on how identi.ca is sort of usless, but I would reserve them for further use.

OMG Ubuntu

So the crime OMG Ubuntu committed is that they don’t scream and run around the room crying “Mono is crap and a threat”. I have seen all kinds of reviews on OMG Ubuntu including applications written in C, C++, Python, Vala, C# or any other language out there. It’s a news site and does it work as required. You cannot be impartial by leaving out Mono applications and calling yourself great. Leave that decision of using mono applications on the authors. They probably have more brains than you actually think.

They are pissed off at David writing blog posts about Banshee on OMG Ubuntu. Joey is not a programmer not any super-techie guy. Everyone does his fair part of job. One great comment is

the entirety of omgubuntu is juvenile, ignorant, and not worth our attention

That comment holds good for techrights actually. I firmly believe that you cannot say anything without annoying people. If you are being opinionated you will hurt sentiments. People love to get annoyed and take offence.

Conclusion

I chuckle when I am called stupid, and weird comments like qu1j0t3: he’s reaching for any insult he can hurl at us especially I never used a single abusive word. When 4 people were answering at once with huge messages, it takes time to reply. When I could not, I got this compliment

he can’t pay attention, both of his neurons are occupied with worshipping m$.

The usage of constant M$ makes me laugh. That’s all you can do to promote free software?

schestowitz needs to make it clear whether he agrees with all these abuses and  dogpiling? Otherwise people will consider all these comments to be the views of techrights community.

Does FOSS community need techrights? Is it bringing good name to the FOSS community? To the non-FOSS world are we looking extremist?

Now excuse me, I have to go and get some work done unlike techrights activists. I have a few assigned bugs, a few packages to build (learning) and write some documentation for my personal pet project.

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52 thoughts on “Techrights/Boycottnovell – Bane or boon? An experience

  1. Lastly remember that tobacco industry works only because we consume tobacco. <<
    Bad quote. tobacco industry tried to hide number 1 that it was additive. Number two they were particular breeding tobacco for it additive quality. Number three hide the medical data they had that proved it killed.

    Even worse the high the ratio of the additive part people who breathed in second and smoke would get hooked on it so not willing choose to buy it. Yes they knew 100 percent what they were doing and went ahead anyhow.

    Yes a lot of people knew this inside big tobacco and choose to say nothing. So leading to many deaths. Defense I was payed todo a job so kept mouth shut so millions of people have died because of this. How nice.

    Now lets move on. MS has also done a lot of criminal actions.

    Remember the old saying Edmund Burke, "When Good Men Do Nothing, The Triumph Of Evil". Sorry there are many ways to make an income. At no point is it legal to support a company or anyone else to commit a crime that staff inside Microsoft has to been doing at times.

    Problem with Microsoft we know they have been committing crimes and who has been hiding them. The documentation keeps on turning up. We are not seeing MS staff with the balls to stand there ground on the illegal issues. So we have to presume they are like the people in big tobacco don't care how many people they kill as long as they get a pay check and they don't have todo it themselves.

    Now have some balls. "You cannot be impartial by leaving out Mono applications and calling yourself great. Leave that decision of using mono applications on the authors. They probably have more brains than you actually think."

    Find me one mono application author who has documented the solutions to the legal problems around mono. Its not the authors who are going to get sued. Its going to be device makers. So the authors are not giving a rats about the long term effects of there actions. So they are just like the people in big tobacco. Its not our problem so why should we care. Then they wonder why they are getting head bitten off.

    Remember I have been once bitten by MS over Long filenames on FAT filesystems. I am not in the mood for another around thank you very much. MS only waited 8 years to inform developers and device makers they would be enforcing patents on that and now wanted payment including back payment for prior usage. Nice big bills.

    So are you prepared to advertise big tobacco OMG Ubuntu and not expect a backlash?

    Putting mono programs on there due to the legal issues should expect equal issue. Particularly since OMG Ubuntu has never published anything informing users that their could be a legal long term issue. Free Software Foundation openly expresses concern about Mono and its unsolved legal issues. In software terms this is equal to placing warning on products that they could be toxic and do need to be handled correctly. Handled correctly could be pure harmless.

    Now would I be as upset with OMG Ubuntu if they were doing true reporting that there was a outstanding issues and links with Mono but here is the application anyhow. No. Because this is true reporting. If they wanted todo it with Vala as well fine. Since .net and Vala have the possibility of coming back and bitting over patent issues. At least Vala has the option to convert to C code and continue on.

    C and C++ are that old patents don't apply anymore. Even Python is crossing that age.

    MS cannot act until the agreement between Novell and MS ends. That is only the end of this year. We are not talking like 10 years off. Once bitten twice shy here. You cannot blame me for this. MS has done it once and I am not going to get caught a second time in the same kind of trap.

    1. Bad quote. tobacco indust

      ….snip..

      his inside big tobacco and choose to say nothing. So leading to many deaths. Defense I was payed todo a job so kept mouth shut so millions of people have died because of this. How nice.

      They create tobacco just because people want it. Stop consuming, they will run out of business.

      So we have to presume they are like the people in big tobacco don’t care how many people they kill as long as they get a pay check and they don’t have todo it themselves.

      They actually laugh that you consume poison and blame poison as the culprit for your death. Why did you have poison in the first place?

      Particularly since OMG Ubuntu has never published anything informing users that their could be a legal long term issue.

      They cater to people who simply don’t care about all these things. People who care already know and people who don’t care, well don’t care.

      Free Software Foundation openly expresses concern about Mono and its unsolved legal issues.

      FSF was never my ideal. They even oppose non-GPL compatible. license even though they are free license. RMS has done his work, now he should let everyone else do their work.

      Now would I be as upset with OMG Ubuntu if they were doing true reporting that there was a outstanding issues and links with Mono but here is the application anyhow.

      OMG Ubuntu caters to newbies(who dont’ care about all those shit) and not idealists

      Even Python is crossing that age.

      How are you sure that Python does not infringe on any patent? Just because it is older than .NET? You never heard about submarine patents?

      Lastly the whole issue was nothing related to mono. It was about the attitude of techrights people about how they abuse everyone else who does not fall in line with them. You need to start reading blog posts more carefully

      1. They create tobacco just because people want it. Stop consuming, they will run out of business.

        Go read big tobacco medical data on the topic. They worked there guts out to create the want by creating addition through second hand smoke. So people were already fairly well hooked before they bought there first cigarette. In a pure attempt to remove free choice from the issue by medical means.

        They actually laugh that you consume poison and blame poison as the culprit for your death. Why did you have poison in the first place?
        You consumed the poison in the first place because someone smoked near you for over 90 percent of people who smoke. Not because you willingly smoked. Again backed by big tobacco research. Less than 1 in 10 smokers by free will started smoking. Even that a lot will try to claim they started by free will because they forget all the time they passive smoked before they started directly smoking. Yes it was in the passive smoking stage there brain chemistry got altered and the addiction started.

        They cater to people who simply don’t care about all these things. People who care already know and people who don’t care, well don’t care.

        Interesting. Same defense as big tobacco uses. We don’t need to place warning labels on product because everyone knows it is possible toxic defense or they don’t care.

        FSF was never my ideal. They even oppose non-GPL compatible. license even though they are free license. RMS has done his work, now he should let everyone else do their work.

        Sorry please find documents doing this. FSF yes points out that particular licenses are GPL incompatible. But I have never seen FSF say to a project they cannot choose to use that license. I have seen others of course quote FSF status as GPL incompatible as a reason not to use a particular license but that is normal.

        Mind you FSF is not the only major to speak out about mono possible legal issues. Redhat, Intel and IBM have all expressed concern at different times as well as many other legal departments. Never been answered by the Mono project or Novell.

        OMG Ubuntu caters to newbies(who dont’ care about all those shit) and not idealists

        Ok so we should delete all warning notices off tobacco because the new people to tobacco don’t care. That is how illogical you are arguing here. You defense is exactly like big tobacco and you stupidly quoted and linked yourself to it.

        How are you sure that Python does not infringe on any patent? Just because it is older than .NET? You never heard about submarine patents?

        Yes I have heard of submarine patents and have been hit by them. MS fat Patents. Python basic design was created in 1991 patents last for a max of 20 years on software. So the point submarine patents on python have to surface or never see the light of day is 2011/2 for the basic struct of the language. To get through the court system to be enforceable the patent had to surface in 2010. Yes if life of patent expires before you have first hearing case is dropped automatically. Thank you USA patent court backlogs.

        Nice thing about Python is all the extensions to Python language since 1991 have there history coming from languages older than python that were already patent expired so by the end of 2012 no court case over patents could be presented against Python. Even now if a court case was presented it would not make it in time.

        Yes I have done my homework on the legal status of Python against submarine patents. I do this every time I start working in a new program language as part of risk assessment. Might shock you but I am required todo this by my employer.

        “Even Python is crossing that age.” Note I used the word crossing not crossed. Crossed is in 2012. Crossing is when you are inside 1 to 2 years of end when a legal case most likely cannot make it anymore. Since delaying tactics by the attacked will most likely be enough to avoid having a ruling made.

        Lastly the whole issue was nothing related to mono. It was about the attitude of techrights people about how they abuse everyone else who does not fall in line with them. You need to start reading blog posts more carefully

        Really I found techrights/boycott novell. Because I was abused and accused of being one of them from the Mono Project Lead Developer because I asked for the legal status of Mono to be cleared up so I could complete my assessment on mono. Since I was thinking of using it embedded so I need to know how I had to legally acquire.

        If you had read the IRC channel logs you would have seen I have argued balanced a lot same with a lot of techrights supporters. There are very few tech-right supporters abuse everyone who does not fall into line. The abuse everyone is far more likely in techrights channels from third parties.

        I have seen mono supporters question how Dr. Roy Schestowitz has a job. Then laugh at a fair earned title of Dr. This is pure abuse. I have never seen this level of abuse from Techright supporters.

        Remember the huge attacks on Gnote because a developer want to see how much speed difference between .net and C++. Sorry to say you want to talk about Techrights being abusive. Compared to a lot of mono supporters including mono lead developer they are angelic.

        I am not saying Techrights disputes 100 percent fairly and that Techrights could not be nicer. But myself would prefer for a sane debate on the topics. Lot of the history of the supporters of Techrights contain personal attack abuse by other parties far worse than any attack Techrights does. Yes does not make it right of course. But in any debate you need for and against. Techrights does a very good job of presenting there case. With fairly low levels of abuse over all compared to the counter camps that more often use abuse than facts.

        Problem I have here is that Mono and others don’t have as equally presented cases.

        Even you here. Instead of correctly debating the topic over Techrights anti-mono stand. You had to bring in big tobacco and try to laugh there argument off.

        Laughing agreements off is not how you win a debate. You want Techrights off you back simply proper win the debate. Start with the basics does Techrights have grounds for there location on Mono. If you could disprove that then Techrights does not have a case and there supporters will back off that topic and move on to a different one.

        Don’t use any of the smoke screen arguments from big tobacco it will only get you hurt. Particularly that court case ruled a lot of staff in big tobacco were guilty of covering up the facts. Even worse big tobacco smoke screen methods were released n those documents. Yes people here have been using them. If you look closely you will notice Techrights people are more likely to attack people who keep on avoiding answering the problems.

        Has OMGubuntu ever answered the Mono problem properly. No. So odds of being attacked for avoiding the issue High. This is human nature.

        Notice I am a techrights person and I did not say that OMGubuntu could not place .net applications on there site. Just the legal status should be displayed. In most countries it illegal to sell a product with outstanding legal issues if you don’t state the possible issues. Should not free software be the same. Or just because it free it magically above the law? Might well be above the law since most laws were mostly written with the idea of money changing hands.

        One of the big issues with Ubuntu in the techrights camp is a lack of display of possible legal issues and the installer does not give the option to opt out if you are aware of some. This does not just apply mono. Debian Fedora….. All of the old school distributions in install you can choose to manually select and deselect packages if something gets known as a legal issue.

        You might answer you can remove them after you installed. Sorry to say this is bad mistake. There are a lot of countries where since you installed you owe payment.

        Legal side around ubuntu needs work. Older distributions have had more time to get on top of this. Does not help that ubuntu keeps on putting head in sand and saying we will worry about it when we get sued by someone.

        I would prefer to be in the location if someone does sue I can deal with it in a way that does not mean taking time to make a custom install or having wait for a release to correct the issue.

        1. Why should OMG! Ubuntu! address questions on legal matters? Their problem should clearly be taken to the Ubuntu Technical Board, who have excellent legal counsel and technical knowledge.

          We are a news blog, I will answer questions on Banshee since people ask, but so long as Microsoft, the OIN, Ubuntu tell me that I can continue using Mono, I am not worried. Microsoft signed legally binding documents, they are standardizing .NET.. they are actually playing this right.

          The techrights crowd has terrible research and journalistic skills, I would be happy to demonstrate but someone else already did:

          http://verofakto.blogspot.com/2011/01/whats-wrong-with-boycottnovell-example.html

          1. True. OMG Ubuntu is not a group of lawyers but a group of enthusiasts. They report news and should not stop opposing mono just because some random people on random channels find it dangerous.

  2. Of everything you said this was the only part I found uncomfortable “Identi.ca is the smaller brother of twitter which lacks wit and sarcasm. There is no humour in any dents. Twitter community rocks. identi.ca community needs to improve themselves. StatusNet software for running identi.ca is great, but that hardly matters if you don’t have a good community.” I mean common Manish painting everyone on Identica with one brush and imho insulting the whole community just because you do not agree with couple of people there is actually doing the very thing you preach against. Never become the thing which you fight. You are much better than that.

    1. I agree. Also, identi.ca has some interesting features Twitter does not, such as threaded discussions and the “see in context” link.

      1. This is a great post.

        Just features won’t cut it…what he is trying to say is that on identi.ca there is only linux news or updates. That’s about it…I’ve been on identi.ca for some time and I haven’t seen twitterlike useless dents, and that’s why identi.ca won’t grow beyond linux and open source communities.

        Identi.ca, great for support but bad for socializing.

        1. Again I beg to differ. I have been on identica since 2008 and I can tell you that it is a great place to network. and is not just about Linux news or update. I have met great people there and most of the post on my timeline and most of the people I follow there talk about everyday stuff. Yes it has a higher concentration of Linux users which is no surprise considering that most people who use Linux or Ubuntu do so because of the free software base and ecosystem around it. It is why in the first place we do what we do and use what we use. Hence it is no brainer that when a social networking site comes up and is based on FOSS greater majority of its users would come from the Linux community who traditionally have a preference for free and open source software . Its the same reason many Ubuntu users prefer Ubuntu-one to dropbox even if the former may not be as stable as the latter. In any case the tech behind identica is not even my bone of contention rather it is the painting of everyone on identica with one brush. Many people use it cause its a great place to make friends and socialise and talk about their lives the way people do on twitter. There are many things I see on my twitter time line (eg a girl asking what colour of under pants girls like to wear before the have sex. I mean wtf? and I see many post like this too) this does not mean I see every girl on twitter as a bimbo or I think twitter is a place to have unserious discussions. If you accuse someone of not sticking with the facts but instead striving on sensationalism the least you can do is to lead by example.

          1. I have met great people there and most of the post on my timeline and most of the people I follow there talk about everyday stuff

            Good luck mate. You are sort of lucky. Not everyone of us are so lucky.

            Hence it is no brainer that when a social networking site comes up and is based on FOSS greater majority of its users would come from the Linux community who traditionally have a preference for free and open source software .

            This is where it falls flat. Failure to accommodate the broader community outside the FOSS world. I hope you got the point.

            Its the same reason many Ubuntu users prefer Ubuntu-one to dropbox even if the former may not be as stable as the latter.

            People prefer U1 but use Dropbox because till now U1 did not have windows support. Now after inclusion of windows support, things might change.

            Many people use it cause its a great place to make friends and socialise and talk about their lives the way people do on twitter.

            Sorry mate. Identi.ca is light years behind Ubuntu i making new friends.

            There are many things I see on my twitter time line (eg a girl asking what colour of under pants girls like to wear before the have sex. I mean wtf? and I see many post like this too) this does not mean I see every girl on twitter as a bimbo or I think twitter is a place to have unserious discussions.

            Irrelevant. Why are we even concerned about these things. Aren’t asking the colors of underpants a private conversation between two people. Just because the tweets are public doesn’t means it affects us. I don’t care. Talking about color of underpants doesn’t make a girl bimbo. It doesn’t make them anything. It doesn’t matter to me.

      2. Threaded discussion and nesting to any depths is a great feature in StatusNet. I do agree, but this is not how communities are built.

        You don’t build communities on technology advancements.

    2. Bobby,

      I could find only a few sensible people on identi.ca, most of the people just post sort of *RSS feeds*. It looks like techmeme feeds. Thanks a lot, I do have feeds subscription for those blogs.

      Only a few people like Daniel Holbach and few more in Ubuntu group make sense. Again these people don’t dent much. They do once in a while. Go and see how much twitter is being used by FOSS activists, the number is appalling just because twitter community is better than identi.ca thousands times.

      I did not say identi.ca community is crap, just that it is miles behind twitter community. Just because it runs a FOSS software doesn’t give it any special position. I did no insult the community. I just don’t find that community useful at all.

      When I disagree with people on identi.ca I reply back and don’t personally insult anyone.

      Lastly if identi.ca members have a habit of getting offended at everything mundane, then I can’t help. If they get offended that I don’t spread mono FUD, then is it my problem? Humans are habituated to get offended at everything. I am not here to make everyone happy. I just obey the CoC, that’s it.

  3. Tobacco companies don’t kill.
    I’m a smoker and i love to smoke i’m smoking since i was 12 and i should quit soon because smoking is starting to affect me … i start to have problems breathing and my chest kinda hurts sometimes but i don’t feel like anybody killed me. It was me who didn’t care what my parents told me not to start and it was i who started smoking even if I saw my father hospitalized for to much smoking , and knowing it was addictive. I’m not sorry i’m smoking i will be sorry i won’t be able to continue. As for those who bother about second hand smoking … i have to ask you why you spend your time in others smoke? you can always spend it in the forest where there is plenty clean air.
    OmgUbuntu clearly doen`t care about open source because they said in a article sometime ago that they wanted to publish a game in the Software Center non open source as far as i know … this doen’t mean they aren’t a great place for ubuntu news.
    I think we should stop acting like politicians and try to convince people through words and lies that something is better then something else and just start working on what we think is better for our selfs and if others will find what we do better they will join if it’s worse they won’t care. Openness doesn’t always compensate for features or community or money.

    1. True.

      We have enough blogs which cater to idealism and strict adherence to FOSS. Now we need blogs which adheres to reality. I think OMG Ubuntu and WebUp8 are filling this void. They are doing a good job.

      The accusation against OMG Ubuntu is “You are being impartial that you are featuring mono applications. You should be partial and leave out mono applications and please us”

      1. Head in sand much both you.

        valentin. From you father you would have been exposed nicotine from a young age. So even before you started smoking for yourself you would have been addicted. Most likely time for you to start smoking would have been about 2 years after you father stopped. This is based of average data so is only aprox other variables can change this.

        Why 2 years. That is about how long nicotine levels in a house for passive smokers in the house take to drop to a point that craving for nicotine starts kicking in with no body smoking in it. Yes you started on the road to tobacco by second hand smoke it was not that you hooked yourself.

        Cigarettes is not like a beer. People who hang around a drunk have free option to choose if they wish to drink it or not. Not true for Cigarettes. The sad part is the worst time to be exposed to nicotine is when you are a child. Everything I have stated here is in big tobacco studies on the subject. Between the age of 12 to 14 by big tobaccos own information is the best time to get people hooked for life. And once a person passes the age of 24 if they have not hooked them by that point most likely they cannot ever. Yes nicotine needs a growing brain to form the brain structure of its addiction. Mature humans are past the point.

        Tobacco is the worst argument anyone one could try to use against anyone. The medical data by Big Tobacco themselves is not on your side let alone third party research.

        1. Yeah guess my sister is immune.
          You are wrong because my mom continued smoking and she is still smoking
          Unbelievable . What you say is wrong you can’t get addicted to something you don’t know … if i put a highly addictive drug in your drink without you knowing you won’t get addicted … (you won’t feel the need to take the drug again although you would feel the withdrawal).
          Smoking is a lot more then the addictiveness to nicotine … it becomes part of you … most of the time you don’t light a cigarette because you need the shot of the drug … you light it because smoking becomes a habit you don’t see yourself without the smoke coming out of your mouth, when you speak with people you usually smoke a lot more but in contrast when you do something that captures your attention you even forget to smoke . … this kind of addictiveness is the real addictiveness of smoking the one of nicotine is a lot weaker then this …
          “Cigarettes is not like a beer. People who hang around a drunk have free option to choose if they wish to drink it or not. Not true for Cigarettes”
          When i will meet you i will come dead drunk and unwashed. You are always free to hang in the park .. there is plenty of clean air there you don’t have to sit in a smokers bar no one forces you to hang with the smokers. Or are you blind and your nose is paralyzed and you can’t smell the smoke? … then i have to admit all the smokers are ass holes they didn’t tell you that there is smoke in there.
          “Everything I have stated here is in big tobacco studies on the subject. Between the age of 12 to 14 by big tobaccos own information is the best time to get people hooked for life. And once a person passes the age of 24 if they have not hooked them by that point most likely they cannot ever. ”
          Burn that paper one of my friends just came home from Italy he is just turning 24 just like me and he started smoking 4 months ago . and none from his family smoked and we couldn’t corrupt him to smoke before … guess he somehow felt the withdrawal of nicotine 4 months ago … even if when he was home we were always in smoke filled bars .
          Smoking still doesn’t kill you assume the risk of dying because of smoking. But you can also risk to jump from a bridge you can’t blame the bridge for your death.

          1. Yes your sister could be immune. Not everyone has the receptors to make nicotine addiction. Some of the anti nicotine addiction drugs today block those receptors.

            “if i put a highly addictive drug in your drink without you knowing you won’t get addicted … (you won’t feel the need to take the drug again although you would feel the withdrawal).”

            Of course not. But I put an addictive drug in your drinks every day for a month then remove it you will suffer withdrawal if you are not DNA immune to the drug used. This is what passive smoking does.

            Burn that paper one of my friends just came home from Italy he is just turning 24 just like me and he started smoking 4 months ago . and none from his family smoked and we couldn’t corrupt him to smoke before … guess he somehow felt the withdrawal of nicotine 4 months ago …
            Do some proper research. Read what I said carefully Hooked. Not that before 24 that he would be smoking directly. Lets say he was hanging around someone who smoked or being in a building where people had smoked or being in a cars where someone had smoked. He was doing that regularly. This would mean he would not have to smoke directly. That stops for enough time hello trigger. Look at 8 months ago up until 4 months ago. By the data that is were the change activity normally causing the people to start in the case you define.

            The habit of nicotine is about maintaining above particular blood level. Same applies to passive smokers. Reason why nicotine patches partly work. They also fail because they replicate passive smoking. And the nasty part about nicotine over time ie more exposure the required blood level has a habit of creeping up.

            You want off nicotine best option is the receptor blockers. Worst part is some people are not just addicted to nicotine but are using it to suppress going insane. So yes receptor blockers have to be giving under medical supervision because you could be completely insane in days if nicotine has been treating a hidden illness worse case 4 hours of having the blocker. Yes nicotine is not 100 percent evil. But there are normally other diet changes that are less harmful.

            The insanity is not the effect of the blocker. Take the same person stick them were they cannot get nicotine and they would flip out as well.

            Its also a worry since one of the exceptions found late development of nicotine addiction is suppression insanity. In every medical study there is outliers. Just over 24 is not much. Maybe slower than normal development that the older study did not cover.

  4. Guns also don’t kill … knifes don’t kill … stones don’t kill bullets don’t kill , drugs don’t kill. Only live organisms are able to kill.

  5. Once again, I’m not really all that surprised at Techrights. They have a habit of slandering against anyone who supports a technology they hate, or calls them out on their own poor behavior.

    Just look at what they did with David “Lefty” Schlessinger. The guy still gets harassed by people stalking him and his family online on a regular basis.

    1. Yeah, in fact, one of the bold proponents of “free software advocacy” is now sending emails to members of my family proposing to Photoshop their faces onto pornographic images and “post them widely on the web”.

    2. Avoid generalizations, it’s one of the things Manish is criticizing.

      Not all owners/readers of Techrights and others who participate in their IRC channels have the same opinions and habits. Accusing them in this way is counter-productive.

      Notice, for example, that Tim from OpenBytes, regular collaborator of Roy Schestowitz in the TechBytes audiocast and regular IRC participant, has a cordial relationship with Schlesinger, as noted by Lefty himself:

      http://caffeine.shugendo.org/2010/10/30/on-the-limewire-shutdown/

      1. I do agree that not everyone on techrights believes in such views. Roy himself has always been very much polite with me, just that I don’t agree to his facts.

        sebsebseb on that channel was also pretty polite and rational.

        The problem is that there are a lot of people who take free software as religion and not obeying their religion as blasphemy. The chat logs do show that

        1. Read closer. There are a lot of people like me in the logs who it is not a matter of blasphemy either.

          It is a matter of legal risk. We have been once bitten by MS methods of using patents and don’t want it again. This is not a religion issue.

          I use closed source. I prefer Open Source due to the audit power it gives me. This is a secuirty issue. Again not a religion issue. I have signed NDA’s at times to get access to source code of different things so they could be audited.

          Saying its a religion issue is a nice way to say hey lets forget about Secuirty issues of this and lets forget about Legal risk issues. A secuirty issue is never a religion issue. Legal risk issue is also never a religion issue. They are just part of the world of software.

          Sorry Manish I see you as a head in sand person.

          1. Before you say that my head is in sand, you need to do the following

            * Find the mono packages in ubuntu which are safe
            * Find the mono packages in ubuntu which are unsafe
            * Find the mono packages in ubuntu which are on border line
            * Furnish the patent links for the patents which MS holds on mono

            Come back when you have done this much. You can’t throw everything against the wall and hope atleast one sticks.

          2. Microsoft has claimed 237 patents against Linux kernel. So you want me to stop using Linux?

            They have never claimed anything against mono.

            So you think that a technology against which MS has asserted patents is more safer than against the technology against which MS has not asserted patents. Lastly don’t forget that mono is not a part of base system. mono is mostly used for writing user facing applications which can be replaced in worst case.

          3. Find the mono packages in ubuntu which are safe.

            This is a dead simple answer.
            Zero.
            Every one is border line. Since there is not one .net program on Ubuntu that is inside the community promise provided by MS over the .net Standard. I have asked for an ECMA standard implementation of .net for a reason. As soon as you restrict .net to ECMA standard not one .net program on Ubuntu runs. Even sections inside the mono runtime goes outside what is covered under the ECMA. In particular ECMA standard has a implementation bug that mono and MS .net does not. So mono it self fails the community promise. So everything on top fails.

            Furnish the patent links for the patents which MS holds on mono
            Current number of patents related to .Net from the legal department I deal with. Yes the trouble to triple damages from seeing the patents as a coder I am not allowed to see them. Reported numbers to me MS 2000+. Novell holds about 10. Sorry no I cannot have the links. All I get is summaries for my assessments. Those are just the ones outside ECMA .

            Microsoft has claimed 237 patents against Linux kernel. So you want me to stop using Linux?
            Nothing compared to what is .net. Really Linux kernel has huge stock pile of Patents from different parties. 237 is really nothing. IBM has over 5000 releated to the Linux kernel but they have stated clearly they will not use them against open source normally. Even so some IBM patents are only usable in GPL licensed programs this includes the Linux kernel.

            Even so sections of the Linux kernel was altered to avoid large numbers of those patents after MS announcement. Today you are most likely talking about 4. Mostly linked to the fat and ntfs file system. Linux can operate without those if it has to.

            They have never claimed anything against mono.
            Did you not read. MS cannot claim until there deal with Novel ends. So no claim at this stage is exactly what you would expect. The deal end at the end of 2011 if its not renewed then MS will be free to claim.

            So you think that a technology against which MS has asserted patents is more safer than against the technology against which MS has not asserted patents. Lastly don’t forget that mono is not a part of base system. mono is mostly used for writing user facing applications which can be replaced in worst case.

            Novell MS deal when that ends defending Mono from patent attack is going to be impossible. Even worse is the Project Lead of Mono own statements about directly talking to MS personal about parts that are outside the community promise. So voiding the defense of independent development.

            Yes one way around patent law is to prove you ideal developed independent to theirs.
            Next is I did not do that defense. What is that you method is completely different. Really most of the time you need both defenses to live threw a challenge over patents.

            Mono does not have the independent development defense. Linux kernel and the Wine project both do have the independent development defense. So are harder to attack with patents.

            Mono is legally weak. Worst path has been maintained by a company that has not had to worry about the legal issues due to a deal that was temporary.

            Both Linux kernel and Wine project respond to legal issues. Mono lead developer just laughs them off. Yes the behavior of the project to possible patent issues you cannot fault the Linux kernel maintainer ship or the wine project maintainer ship. Mono on the other hand complete disaster waiting to happen due to poor handling.

            Its nothing uncommon for Linux kernel in particular to go to companies holding patents and ask for permission without permission implement another way normally covered by another companies patent who has given approval. So yes most of those 237 patents would end up in a dispute about who patent is valid. Also notice in the recent MS vs Motorola not 1 of the talked about patents is Linux kernel related even that its over android with a Linux kernel.

            This is common Linux kernel is a big risk of a legal hot foot due to the huge numbers of patents covering it. That different parties have agree to provide.

            Basically where are the hords of patents to protect mono that are licensed against it source base. Wait they were being sold to a company party owned by MS who would not attack MS. Yes Novell has very few patents over Mono and most of the development in mono has not being using outside agreements over patents. So mono is basically not a legal mine field to attack.

            Codeweavers behind wine do have more patents covering wine than Novell has covering .net. With the sale Mono may have nothing protecting it at all.

            Before you point to OIN. It has a problem. It really don’t have that many patents that can be using in a .Net case. All those come from Novell and if MS owns that as well game over they will not be usable.

            Hard point to accept mono location is not good.

          4. @oiaohm
            You need to learn how to keep comment short. tl;dr category comments have less value than you think.

            This is a dead simple answer.
            Zero.

            You lost me here. You have no clue. Do you have any idea of how many packages are there in the repo?

            Every one is border line. Since there is not one .net program on Ubuntu that is inside the community promise provided by MS over the .net Standard.

            I was talking about packages and not applications. Please think before speaking and know the facts before saying.

            Reported numbers to me MS 2000+. Novell holds about 10.

            I know this would have been your reply. Throw up statistics and wait. Sorry dude, you did not furnish any proof. You missed this part.

            but they have stated clearly they will not use them against open source normally.

            They used/threated the OIN patent against a mainframe emulator project. Please don’t twist facts. Tell the reality too.

            MS cannot claim until there deal with Novel ends.

            Please don’t throw around hypothesis. I know predicting the future is what everyone wants to do, without giving any real concrete examples.

            Mono lead developer just laughs them off.

            What can he do when MS has not told him which patent is infringed. Right? What can he do?Nothing

            This is my last reply to you. This post was about the pathetic behavior of techrights community and not about mono. This is what I hate, writing anything even faintly related to mono and people like you jump in and start posting off-topic comments. Check your first comment. You started this mono talk on a blog post dedicated to Techrights behaviour.
            If you want to take this furthur ping me on identi.ca

      2. While Tim is certainly a reasonable guy, as is Wayne Borean, they’re very much the exceptions to the rule, in my experience.

        Folks like “Chips R. Mulroy” have done things like post contact information for my work on Schestowitz’s site, hoping that other people would call and complain about me; in one notable instance, a “Mark Fink”, among others, did in fact contact my work—and was blown off pretty immediately—but did so with Schestowitz’s apparent connivance and approval.

        Schestowitz denies ever knowing such a person, in spite of referring to him in comments, offering him the opportunity to edit a page on the “Boycott Novell” site, etc. Schestowitz, as you note, seems to have little to no regard for the actual truth and routinely leaves erroneous and misleading information up, apparently in perpetuity.

      3. Notice, however, that Roy is one of the things on which Tim and I strenuously disagree: Tim feels his positive points outweigh his negative ones, and I feel quite strongly otherwise.

        Tim’s merits are that he is honest—which Roy is not—he doesn’t stoop to character assassination—as Roy does—and he’s willing to openly admit and correct errors, when he’s persuaded he’s made them—as Roy is not.

  6. @ Manish I guess you completely missed the point of my analogy. I was just saying that hasty generalization is just as bad. I can not speak for others but from my experience both identica and twitter have their good and bad side. this statement “Identi.ca is the smaller brother of twitter which lacks wit and sarcasm. There is no humour in any dents. Twitter community rocks. identi.ca community needs to improve themselves. StatusNet software for running identi.ca is great, but that hardly matters if you don’t have a good community” does not represent Identica at least not from my experience In fact I feel more a sense on community on identica than I feel on twitter. It has a bias for techies and opensource enthusiast just like how lastfm has bias for music lovers. That does not make one better than the other. The fact that twitter is more mainstream compared to identica does not make twitter a better community. plus how do u measure humour and wit? maybe the folks on your timeline on identica lack a sense of humour I can’t speak for them, but to infer this to be a general identica problem is stretching it too far. You may not like identica, maybe your timeline sucks. God knows there are many things I hate about my twitter timeline but I just deal with it and get on without complaining about how dimwit twitter users can be.

    1. @Bigbrovar:

      Just a heads up: please add some paragraphs in your posts because it’s very difficult to read them otherwise.

    2. It has a bias for techies and opensource enthusiast just like how lastfm has bias for music lovers.

      lastfm is a music social network. It isn’t a general social network for all people to socialize. Only people who love music go there. It’s scope is narrowed down.

      Twitter is nothing like this. It is a social network for everyone. Which side you want identi.ca to be? General social network or tech-people specific? Twitter start with full of techies but managed to get a huge amount of non-techies or people irrespective or any caste, creed or color or specific fields of knowledge.

  7. Just so we’re all in the same page here, ‘oiaohm’ is one of BoycottNovell’s little munchkins, posting here without the same disclosure Dr. Roy demands of everyone else. Take all that verbiage with a grain of salt.

  8. I follow !ubuntu on identi.ca, and sometimes post to it. I find it useful to follow the work people are doing, and also what kind of questions people are asking.

    identi.ca works well for me because it has the “block” feature. Using “block”, it’s easy to filter out people who only contribute what I consider to be “noise.” After blocking only a few people !ubuntu became much more useful and fun.

    Cheers, Rick

    1. Hey Rick,
      I do follow a few people on identi.ca and also !ubuntu group. The abuse of ! is pretty high in identi.ca though I still manage it.

      I would like StatusNet to have some privacy features like stopping anyone from seeing my actual timeline. It is as simple as identi.ca/foo/all

  9. I agree that Techrights is often too sensationalist (their “opponents” are often much worse, just more subtle), but…

    “This is a common belief that Microsoft employees are working day and night to destroy the world.”

    First you accuse Roy Schestowitz of sensationalism, and next you write something like above yourself…

    “If people smoke and die, isn’t it the person’s fault.”

    When the tobacco industry lobbies and bribes governments and institutions with large sums of money, and has denied the dangers of smoking for decades, in my eyes the industry bares a great responsibility for the health damages people have suffered.

    1. their “opponents” are often much worse

      100% disagree. Their opponents are in picture who are pissed off at Roy and his mates.

      First you accuse Roy Schestowitz of sensationalism, and next you write something like above yourself

      That is just the summary of what I heard from everyone on that channel.

      eyes the industry bares a great responsibility for the health damages people have suffered

      You put all the blame on them and want to walk away freely? Right? Why don’t you simply admit your mistakes? They do have their share of responsibility which does not acquit you of your mistakes.

      1. “Their opponents are in picture who are pissed off at Roy and his mates.”

        Sorry, but I don’t understand your sentence.

        “”First you accuse Roy Schestowitz of sensationalism, and next you write something like above yourself”
        That is just the summary of what I heard from everyone on that channel.”

        Your statement is obviously exaggerated, perhaps because you were angry when you wrote it. And now it seems that you can’t give up your position, because you think you would lose face. Like I said, Roy Schestowitz & co. are often sensationalists in my eyes too, but you are not being much better with your remark either.

        “You put all the blame on them and want to walk away freely?”

        Where did I say so? You brought up the responsibility of the smokers, and to counterbalance that, I brought up the wrongdoings of the industry. It doesn’t have to be either–or.

        “Why don’t you simply admit your mistakes?”

        What mistakes are you talking about? I don’t smoke.

  10. Nice reading there, but I would like to point out a few things.

    First, it seems you misunderstand that the word “kill” in the proposition “Gun don’t kill people, people kill people” has two significations.

    It’s like saying “Man descent from the Ape, Ape descent from the mountain, so man must descent from the montain.” You cannot change the meaning of a word in the middle of an argument without making this argument invalid.

    In your sentence:
    1) “Kill”, applied to a gun (or tobacco) means that the fonction of the gun (or a very important side effect of tobacco) is to cause death.
    2) “Kill” applied to people means that you attribute the mental intention of killing to a person.

    Sure, everybody knows guns and cigarettes do not possess mental states. But that is not a reason to deny 1. Guns ans tobacco do kill people, but not intentionally. Can you blame them? Not in a legal sense, but yes, you can take into account the fact they are made (or have the serious side effect) to kill and accordingly restrain usage.

    Second, your position is also based upon the conception that humanity is always able to act rationnally: people choose, knowingly, to kill themselves with tobacco, and could stop if they really wanted to. I’m afraid that is not the case – addiction to a substance is not volontary, addiction will decide for you. It’s kind like there is another involontary agent inside you that is not you and will crush your own volition. That is why we call it “addiction”, and not “stupid, but responsible choice.”

  11. I have to agree with your statement about the tobacco companies. The same deal bothers me about drug dealers. These innocent people are incarcerated for merely providing people with what they want. That is just wrong.

  12. Wow that was strange. I just wrote an very long comment but after I clicked submit my comment didn’t show up. Grrrr… well I’m not writing all that over again. Anyway, just wanted to say superb blog!

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