To Ubuntu bashers: Stop sulking and get a life

Clarification: I mistakenly used the term “two and a half hours” instead of “two and a half years” in the post below. Sorry for my typo! Corrected it!

Looks as if Ubuntu bashing has become a fashion lately. After getting fed up with MS, Apple and Adobe now its chance for Ubuntu to face the wrath of the trolls. I have used Ubuntu for two and a half years and researched a lot. At this stage I can give a fitting reply to anyone who feels that Ubuntu does what it shouln’t.

Allegation: Ubuntu doesn’t contribute upstream

Is upstream contribution the only way to show your faith in development? Isnt distribution and making it available to the public a big work? Before Ubuntu there were many other distros including much famous Fedora and OpenSuse. Whenever a new version came out, users from one distro would shift to another. Did anyone try to bring people from windows world? Ubuntu made its own ground, it never brought as much people from other distros as expected. Most of the new started using Ubuntu. Ubuntu showed them that there is actually light at the end of a tunnel which they have always felt as “dark”.

Allegation: Ubuntu is spoiling the market by putting in money from Shuttleworth’s Foundation

So what’s wrong in doing so? Who doesn’t want money to come in the FOSS world? The biggest problem has always been that people consider free as free of cost even though it means differently. Actually *most* of the free software is free of cost. Companies come to think that developing apps for Linux isnt feasible since no one wants to buy software. So isn’t Shuttleworth’s attempt a bold move? He knows that Cannonical isnt reaping profits, still he is financing in a hope that the community becomes self supporting one fine day.

Allegation: Ubuntu doesn’t have bleeding edge packages to match with Fedora

If you think that bleeding edge is the only way to judge the  quality of distro then you are flawed! More bleeding edge package mean more chances of bugs and more instability. Ubunt strikes a fine balance between bleeding edge and stability. If Fedora provides 2.6.29 kernel in Fedora 11 and Ubuntu has 2.6.28 kernel, then by no means they are light years apart! Stop howling and get over it! I have personally noticed that Ubuntu uses even numbers like 22,24,26,28 etc. Well, its just my observation as far as I can recall.

Allegation: Ubuntu is for Kids

Reason? Just because everything works? Or just because it is simple? In such a case, Mac should also be tagged for being an OS for extreme n00bs and its is said to “always work” and not “just work”. It is a mature distros which focusses a lot on bringing out the best features to the public.

Allegation: Users don’t have much say in proposed features

One word left to say – WTF! Looks like you have no idea of UbuntuForums, Brainstorm, mailing lists and the IRC channels. Which other distro has such an organized brainstorm as Ubuntu? Not just they are looked after, but many of the  features of upcoming Jaunty Jackalope were listed down and demanded in brainstorm. Two of them being “Faster resume” and “Fix Suspend/Resume/Hibernate”.

Final summed up response

Earlier it was PCLOS community which started bashing Ubuntu to gain some press, now I find that Fedora community is leading it. No offence meant, but as day progresses Fedora community is starting to whine about Ubutu’s featues and all those nonsense. Even Fedora Ambassadors are talking shit about Ubuntu!!! I was never against Fedora(why should I be?) and have used it before.

I never see any such so called bashing from the side of Ubuntu community. They probably use that time improving the distro rather than talking nonsense. Every other damn day I find articles from Fedora fanboys comparing Ubuntu and Fedora and delivering flawed results based on some irrational logic to show Fedora as champion. Do they want to get noticed in the community? If yes, then better check out articles by Ubuntu fanboys – only promoting Ubuntu, no bashing. Sweet!

The better side is that Ubuntu and Fedora are giving each other a solid competition, the final winner is no other than the end-users. Constructive criticism is one thing, but being pessimist and hitting Ubuntu for every fact just showcases the lack of rationalism.

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86 thoughts on “To Ubuntu bashers: Stop sulking and get a life

  1. “. I have used Ubuntu for two and a half hours…”

    Whether you’re right or wrong in your argument, this does not bolster your case, nor instill confidence that you know what you’re talking about.

  2. The main criticism I’ve ever read over the years, is that Ubuntu users need to use the command line every now and then, either to fix, configure or install something. And that that’s something other distro users don’t need, because they have GUI screens to do the same things.

    Of course, that issue is clearly avoided in your post.

    How do you plea?

    1. I never say Ubuntu is perfect. This post is just about to answer the unreasonable attacks which Ubuntu has to face.
      I understand that command-line is still needed for setting up things in Ubuntu, ditto in other distros. It’s only upto what limit you need to use.

      I don’t need a plea. I won’t say Ubuntu is perfect even if it is. It needs to continue evolving.

  3. Ubuntu fanbois don’t bash other distros because they’re unaware that there _are_ other distros. They think Ubuntu _is_ Linux. So instead they spend all their time bashing Microsoft and Windows in the ubuntu forums, because as former Windows users, that’s the only other OS they know about. (And frankly, they don’t even know much about Windows under the hood either. Ubuntu users are the most technically illiterate computer users ever to pick up a copy of Linux). And frankly, before you go on about upstream contributions, and how unfair it is for Fedora users to criticize Ubuntu, check out how many redhat contributions there are to open source projects versus Canonical’s contributions. There’s no contest there. Canonical is at the bottom of the heap in what it contributes back to Linux.

    1. @jg

      I don’t really think people like you would come back to check the response to their comments but still, I will take a shot.

      “Ubuntu users are the most technically illiterate computer users ever to pick up a copy of Linux”

      You just put your, what you call that…ah, foot in your own mouth. Just think of it. No technical wizardry or geekery needed. Just install and you are good to go. It’s high time you realised people want things to just work. That a bunch of “illiterate computer users”, as you put it, are able to work their way around a linux distro says a lot about Ubuntu,

      About your allegation that Ubuntu users don’t have much idea about “under the hood” stuff, it’s not clear what exactly you meant by that phrase. Is it about poking around conf files? Is it about some uber package management skills? I’m waiting for some details from you on that.

      As far as I’m concerned, what I learn and deal with can be considered to be quite the extreme end of “under the hood” stuff ( I already feel like a dork repeating this phrase ). But at the end of the day, when I want to type in a project report and upload the files from my campus wi-fi, I wouldn’t want to be caught dead emerging openoffice and atheros modules for 2 hours before doing anything fruitful. So I switch back to Ubuntu where things just work for me and I can submit my report in time.

      The point is, if anyone is interested in [insert your dorky phrase here] stuff, they will look for other options that suit them better. Now, you wouldn’t really run HP-UX on your desktop, would you? Then going by your logic, the guys at HP who deal with high performance computing are justified to call you “computer illiterate” on that account.

      Generalization has never been a good idea. Hope you understand that.

      1. The problem with Ubuntu being set that way is that (much like OSX), it’s damn near impossible to figure out why something isn’t working the way you expect it to. I’ve used SuSE, RHEL, Fedora, Gentoo, Arch, Debian, Slack, and Ubuntu, and all of them have their problems.

        Ubuntu leaves known-broken packages in the repositories (DotEdit for one), ancient versions abound (Intrepid still have Netbeans 6.2, Jaunty and Intrepid both have Scala 2.3 [for reference, Netbeans 6.5 has been out a year, Scala is at 2.7, and stable]), rubygems are an utter mess unless you go around the “Ubuntu way” and bypass apt, etc. It is not a suitable operating system for developers, and yes, the average Ubuntu user couldn’t configure [Postfix,Sendmail,BIND,Postgres,rubygems,Apache,Samba] without the forums or excellent Arch/Gentoo wikis (which are often linked to on the Ubuntu forums. I wonder why?) if their life depended on it.

        Hell, it’s not even a suitable system for desktop users in many ways. iwconfig $if essid $essid does NOTHING in Jaunty. Unless you use NetworkManager or wicd, you can’t join a wireless network with the STA driver. It (properly) fails if you run it as a normal user. However, if you run it using sudo or root, there’s no error output, but `iwconfig $if` still shows the essid as unassociated. This, by the way, works in Fedora, Gentoo, Arch, and probably every other distro out there. I’m not interested in using strace or gdb to figure out why Ubuntu’s failing there.

        The “Restricted Driver Manager” is another mess entirely. Canonical couldn’t make up their minds for quite some time about what to do with the BCM43 wireless chipsets. They ended up defaulting to a kernel module with no shipping firmware (which is still the case in Jaunty, even though you can extract the firmware from Broadcom’s linux driver if you don’t want to taint the kernel with a proprietary module). The recommendation? Go hunt down a Windows driver package which -might- work for your card on various OEM sites, download it, and run b43-fwcutter. Reboot and pray. Mind — you pretty much have to be on a wired network while you do this. If it works, ok, but you have crappy performance. If not, or you want better performance, go to NDISwrapper. Unfortunately, installing NDISwrapper doesn’t blacklist b43, which leads to no wireless at all. Honestly, if you’re going to offer me “Restricted Drivers” though a GUI, don’t take half measures. Again, Fedora doesn’t do this (NDISwrapper was the recommended way, and STA is in the repos now), Gentoo has it, Arch has it, SuSE has it. Tell me how the average Ubuntu user is going to troubleshoot this.

        Please don’t throw out strawmen about compiling Atheros modules (if you had an Atheros chip, you’d have it built into the kernel on SuSE/Fedora/Debian/Gentoo [Gentoo because, presumably, you compiled your own kernel and you wanted support for your wireless]; if you just added it, compiling a module takes <2 minutes). Gentoo has binary packages, thanks, particularly for huge projects like OpenOffice (also for smaller ones like Firefox/KDE that take a while to compile). If you don’t have networking and a text editor on your system when it comes time to “write a project report”, you have bigger problems anyway. Like having no operating system installed.

        As an aside, HP-UX is dead for all intents and purposes. HP threw away everything worth adding from Tru64 with the Compaq acquisition and HP-UX is on life support with no new features being added. They’re keeping legacy clients who still have software that has to run on HP-UX (the Itanium versions will still run most PA-RISC code). The same reason they keep VMS around. Legacy clients == free money. The only significant features added recently were vPars, I/O multipathing, and a tweaked VxFS. Solaris and AIX have had features which blow away vPars (LPARs and Zones/LDoms) for quite a while, they both have I/O multipathing, and better filesystems (JFS2/LVM on AIX, ZFS or SAM on Solaris). Nobody uses HP-UX without very good reason. Solaris (10 and Open) is a surprisingly good desktop.

    2. You just shot yourself in your foot. You say that Ubuntu users are illetirate. Isn’t that a clear cut proof that Ubuntu has contributed users to Linux rather than codebase. This highlights that using it is so simple that even Windows n00bs also use it.
      More the number of n00bs using Linux/Ubuntu , it means we are succeeding. Ponder over this point.

      >>Canonical is at the bottom of the heap in what it contributes back to Linux
      This is again the first allegation which I have already answered. Ubuntu contributes users to Linux rather than codebase. Kernel and upstream contributions is not the only contribution known in FOSS community.

      It is been said that even artists and documenters can contribute to Linux, so going by your logic we can say that their contribution s nil since they don’t contribute to codebase? Every user is not a geek, you need to understand this.

      1. What good is contributing users if the users are stupid, fanatical fanboys that put down everyone else and think they are better than everyone, which is what ubuntu fanboys do.

      2. Please explain why you think “adding users” is just as important as upstream contributions.

        For that matter, why do you think adoption of Linux on the desktop is a more admirable goal than improving stability, adding drivers, and adding features? I realize that for some (adding drivers/some applications), a critical mass needs to be attained. That has been reached. Intel, AMD/ATI, Broadcom, nVidia, and Adobe all take part.

        For other applications (Photoshop. SolidWorks, etc), the simple fact is that their userbase is not clamoring for Linux support — and probably never will be. They use Windows/OSX because the products they use are there. It’s a bit paradoxical, and the rise of easy, well supported virtualization is marginalizing concerns about software availability (other than games).

        Why do you think what the community needs is, well, a larger community that cannot RTFM, fix bugs, add features, or do anything that really benefits open source? In particular, the majority of these users are like WoW players — it’s the best Unix-alike “ever” because they’ve never used another. When push comes to shove and they find some feature they cannot live without, they will almost certainly go back to Windows rather than implementing it themselves.

    3. Greg KH’s stats about Canonical contribution only included the kernel, X, compilers, and other very low level things. The desktop was left out. Guess where Ubuntu does most of its work? On the desktop. So really it’s GNOME you need to look at.

      Additionally, where do you get off saying we don’t know how to use our computers or that there are other distros? I used to quad boot Fedora, Sabayon (Gentoo), stable Ubuntu, and unstable Ubuntu. Then I dual-booted Ubuntu and Debian. I’ve been a systems engineer on CentOS (Red Hat) systems, and the computer I setup at my dad’s house is running Debian Etch. Sure, I’ll tease my friend that uses Gentoo, but the teasing always of the “so, how long did it take to emerge that?” sort.

      Years ago, Linus said he used Fedora, an easy distro, because he didn’t want to be bogged down with installing Debian when all he really wanted to be doing was hacking on the kernel. Using a distro that’s easy to install and installs quickly let him get down to business faster without dealing with the silly non-kernel-related stuff.

      I agree with Linus. Give me something that I can get going quickly (Ubuntu, in my case), and I can get down to hacking a bit quicker…in my case, I’m usually hacking on desktop apps, but I’ve done a bit with the kernel too.

      I’ll add though, that I find Ubuntu’s developer community to be more friendly than upstream ones. Part of that’s because I know (at least online) many of them. The other part of it is that they don’t flame you if your patch includes a silly mistake. For that reason, I prefer to have Ubuntu developers vet my patches. If there’s a problem, they’ll spot it. If they accept it, I can tell upstream “Ubuntu’s release team has already accepted this” so they don’t have to worry about the quality.

      1. Mackenzie,
        That’s what I wanted to say. Gimme something which works out of box without any headache or hassles.

        Those all who say that ubuntu breaks a lot of packages, I can’t get your point. I have never seen broken packages to the extend you visualize. It can happen in cases you experiment badly with the system. A normal user isnt so geeky to do so.

  4. Ubuntu doesn’t necessarily love even kernel numbers:

    Warty: 2.26.8
    Hoary: 2.6.10
    Breezy: 2.6.12
    Dapper: 2.26.15
    Edgy: 2.26.17
    Feisty: 2.26.20
    Gutsy: 2.26.22
    Hardy: 2.26.24
    Intrepid: 2.26.27
    Jaunty: 2.26.28

      1. Maybe he missed out the major kernel number. Just a trivial mistake 🙂

        This is what he meant:

        Warty: 2.6.8
        Hoary: 2.6.10
        Breezy: 2.6.12
        Dapper: 2.6.15
        Edgy: 2.6.17
        Feisty: 2.6.20
        Gutsy: 2.6.22
        Hardy: 2.6.24
        Intrepid: 2.6.27
        Jaunty: 2.6.28

        Well, I meant usually. Most of the kernel numbers are again even numbered 😀

  5. “I have used Ubuntu for two and a half hours…”

    Just out of curiosity: Did you just switched to Ubuntu from some other flavor of Linux, or this is really the first time you actually run Linux?

    If the latter: As said above, you are not really entitled to either judge what other distro do, neither justify Ubuntu fanbois. In fact you sound one yourself!

    Disclaimer: Linux user since 2001, currently running Ubuntu since Breezy. RedHat Linux and Fedora user before than that.

    1. What did I say what other distros do? Did I? double check the post. I just said that the attitude of some other Linux community is bad when it comes to Ubuntu. When did I say something about the development of any other distro.

      Well, I started with Knoppix. Used Ubuntu, then OpenSuse then again Ubuntu, then Fedora and finally settled on Ubuntu.

    1. Sankarshan, they are even my friends. I have conveyed my grievances to them. Most of them talk such because they know only how to talk about Fedora and don’t give a damn to any other distros.
      Well, I cant pin-point so openly, but I can give you some minor example publicly. One is here on twitter and other on our mailing lists. One more I pointed out in the post itself, though am not sure whether he is an Ambassador or not

  6. While I agree with what you’re saying about trolls – I’d also like to point out that this article is just more fodder for them.

    I think the best way to deal with these silly trolls is to just ignore them. Give them the cold shoulder.

    1. Socceroos,
      This is my first and last post regarding them. I agree this is a fodder for trolls, but I can’t just watch and ignore. One kick in the ass is required.
      To Trolls: Done! No more posts furthur, so more more fodder you.

  7. jg said it best; I have no personal gripe with Ubuntu, I don’t use it but I gave it a fair shot, along with dozens of others, it seems. That’s the whole point: there’s so much variety out there that there’s something for everyone (for me it’s Pardus), and it’s those fanboys who think that Ubuntu is the only worthwhile distro who really bug me. They remind me of used car salesmen, and do the whole community a big disservice.

    1. You know why most people think that Ubuntu is the only distro because it has been on the forefront of introducing Linux to the windows users. We never expect them to know the policies and all those instritic details.
      Do windows users care? every other guy is not a geek or a nerd.

      If more number of people think that Ubuntu is Linux, then they are surely n00bs who shifted from Windows. This is indirectly a measure of success for Ubuntu.

  8. The Ubuntu bashers are out in force already.

    YoYo, yo is an idiot. Ubuntu is not different than any other modern GNU/Linux distro, gui tools for everything, terminal if you want.

    jg spouting the same old emotional nonsense. Ubuntu constantly feeds Debian with fixes, yes RedHat and Novell both contribute a lot, but RedHat thinks the desktop is a waste of time and Novel is encumbered with Suse. And to say that Ubuntu users do not know that there are any other distros. Sure? I have been a Linux user for more than 10 years and I choose Ubuntu because it gives me Debian, but up to date and stable. There are thousands of very knowledgeable people who frequent the Ubuntu forums offering help, they would all laugh at your silly generalisation. I was a Suse user but came to hate yast as a kludgy pain. I started with RedHat, then Fedora, but Ubuntu is just better. I have Fedora 11 beta on a second machine and it is nowhere near stable enough for serious use.

    If you are a serious freedom supporter then get Debian. If you have new hardware then Debian will let you down unless you delve into testing or unstable or start compiling new kernels, then you loose the legendary stability.

    Ubuntu Jaunty is simply as good as it gets. Get over it.

  9. Um, Ubuntu _is_ Debian unstable, and the majority of Ubuntu’s packages _are_ from the Debian repositories. Ubuntu is just Canonical ripping off the work of the Debian devs, and rebranding it as the work of Canonical. Because Ubuntu _is_ Debian unstable is why Ubuntu is as “stable” as Debian unstable, which is to say, not as stable as Debian stable. All Ubuntu is, is Debian unstable with a few Ubuntu hacks such as Upstart merged into it. And that makes Ubuntu a broken version of Debian unstable, because things like Upstart aren’t tested with all of the Debian packages. So for example, Ubuntu breaks things such as the MidiSport package, and causes other such regressions. And again, Canonical doesn’t contribute to Linux development nearly as much as RedHat, Novell, and lots of other companies. Hell, they don’t even contribute as much as Xandros. Ubuntu is the most overhyped Linux distro ever. It’s the Windows ME of the Linux world. And Canonical is the most overhyped company involved with Linux. It’s fine if you want to feel warm all over for Ubuntu. But don’t be surprised that lots of other folks are aware of what Ubuntu really is, and what Canonical really does, and they aren’t nearly as enamored as you are. And _that’s_ why, when the ubuntu fanbois are going on about how great Ubuntu/Canonical is, lots of other folks in-the-know reply “Um, not at all.”. Ubuntu is nothing but Debian unstable, with a whole lot of bogus marketing hype that clueless Linux newbies swallow hook, line, and sinker.

    1. You forget that Shuttleworth has always used Debian and he always had good relations with Debian devs. He always termed Ubuntu and Debian as son and father.

      After seeing the release cycle of Debian, he felt that if linux needs to go mainstream, frequent release cycle is absolutely necessary. When Debian is under GPL, then why not use the codebase itself?
      Why re-invent the wheel? Is Ubuntu some proprietary software?

      Secondly, how many times will I say that upstream and kernel development is not the one *true* way to contributing to Linux. Ubuntu did one thing which no one stands ever near to it “Contributing people to Linux”.

        1. Uh, well, Mark Shuttleworth was a Debian Developer for quite a while, so…yeah, he was friendly with Debian. He was part of it. He forked to have frequent releases, and all the work Ubuntu Developers do to stabilize the packages form Sid gets sent back to Debian so they can stabilize those packages and send them on to Testing more efficiently. If you listen to Ian Murdock, he considers all Ubuntu users to be Debian users as well because they work together closely. I mean, it’s not like any semi-advanced Ubuntu user would be uncomfortable with Debian.

  10. Allegation: This is so old news.

    Yes i’m an ubuntu user. and bringing up old issues which already answered is so noobish for a blog entry.

    1. Well, I also know this is old entry,but how long can I stand all those bullshit allegations? Wherever I go, all I find is some super-intelligent g33k trying to show Ubuntu as sub-standard.

      This blog post was born out of the attitude “Enough! Stop the trolls, kick on their a**es and make them feel that no response doesn’t mean what they say is correct”

  11. jg

    Ubuntu is not just Debian unstable. All packages are compiled from source and stability checked and if necessary patched. Ubuntu also takes packages from Debian experimental. You are spouting rubbish. No sensible user mixes Debian repositories with Ubuntu ones, that is to invite also sorts of dependency hell. Nothing Ubuntu breaks anything Debian. You use Debian or you use Ubuntu, they are not the same just because Ubuntu is based on Debian. There are many packages in Ubuntu that do not even exist in the Debian ones, and visa versa.

    You should check your facts before mouthing off, if you think Debian unstable is anywhere near as stable as Ubuntu you are kidding yourself. That is the whole point of Ubuntu, to make an up to date stable Debian for general use. Debian stable is, by it’s nature, always two generations behind – great on old hardware or a server.

    Sidux tries to do a similar thing, but without the resources and the tens of thousands of users. It tries to remain true to the unstable debian packages, do you criticise Sidux? Sidux is just Debian unstable with a few fixes. Ubuntu is much much more.

  12. Ubuntu is the most overrated distro ever put out. It’s not nearly as good as its fanbois portray it to be — certainly not moreso than many other distros. Its “success” is all the result hype and fanboi “marketing”.

  13. Manish, let’s face it: before you were bowing at the Church of Ubuntu, you were doing the same at the altar of Microsoft!

    Fact is, Ubuntu is not the be-all and end-all of Linux distributions though you’re not alone in propagating that rationale (if it can be called so.)

    At any given time, my PC has at least 4 distros installed and yes, Kubuntu is one of them (I use KDE only), but I never get partisan about any distribution. This is not because I don’t have loyalties but in OSS its always better to keep blinkers off and be on the lookout for something better. In any case, every application which is available on *buntu is available in any other distro. As for Ubuntu being dumbed down at bit too much, its the truth. Both GNOME and KDE have been “crippled” (for want of a better word) in *ubunutu!

    Let’s not be another Microsoftie or Appleite 🙂

    Cheers.

    1. Well KenP,
      I have not been a MS hater nor a lover. Just that I never loved MS’s business tactics. I criticize even Linux for its shortcomings. As a FOSS advocate you would think me to be a MS basher, but its not. I have even worked in MS as an intern 🙂

  14. Manish is not bowing before the alter of Ubuntu, just pointing out the irrational Ubuntu bashing that goes on around the Internet.

    A valid point, that has generated many posts, that prove his point.

    Well done for a noob.

    1. “have used Ubuntu for two and a half hours and researched a lot.”

      Fact or fiction, I don’t care because the essence of the post make a lot of sense. I have used Linux since 1999 and I have tried most of the major distributions over time, and a whole lot of the small and odd ones too. I love Linux for it’s versatility and the diversity. It’s not one unifying framework like MFC or Cocoa that makes Linux great. It’s actually the freedom of choice. I personally prefer Debian on my servers and Arch on my desktops. I install Ubuntu on my parents and non-computer-geek-friends desktops because I know it will work for them. I hate fan-boys bashing whatever not on their own machines. I personally don’t like KDE, Red Hat or Fedora. Do I find them less valuable than Gnome, Ubuntu or Debian? No way! KDE is a great piece of software, Red Hat one of the most contributing companies in the world and Fedora a great incubator for new innovations. But bad fan-boy attitudes isn’t anything new. I remember when I was a kid and Atari fan-boys bashed CBM fan-boys, when C fan-boys bashed Basic fan-boys, when 16-bit fan-boys bashed 8-bit fan-boys, when Mac fan-boys bashed PC fan-boys. I guess it boils down to your ego, confidence, empathy etc. Some seems to get a kick by bashing on the other one. Thank god some doesn’t.

      1. I used that line to show that I know enough about Ubuntu before opening my mouth. Since I have never used other distros as much as Ubuntu, so didnt write anything about them.

        The whole discussion zeros on to the point – that being a fan isn’t bad! But bashing or ridiculing just because the person next to you isn’t, is clearly a sign of immaturity.

    2. GregE, what is irrational to you is perfectly valid criticism for others.
      Ubuntu is not the epitome of open-source software or its philosophy. If it was, it would be Debian 😉
      Frankly, it it wasn’t for Canonical’s muscle (read Shuttleworth dollars) behind it, it would be just another distribution.

      To prove my point, take a look at PCLinuxOS. It topped distrowatch ratings (not that they are scientific or anything) beating even Ubuntu with absolutely no rich mentors behind it. If you try it, you would realise that its the easiest distro to ease into if you’re coming from Windows. So, Ubuntu has been unfarily (IMO) projected as the “chosen one” by the OSS media.

      To give you just one example of Ubuntu’s woes, I have a dual-monitor setup which is nothing spectacular but your darling distro has never been able to configure them properly. This, when openSUSE, Mandriva and PCLinuxOS have done it. As has Arch linux. This is true of Jaunty RC as well!!

      I still have it installed on my system and I boot into it and get updates to see if my display problem has been fixed but so far, no dice …

      That was my main reason for saying Manish is bowing to Ubuntu because it seems like blind faith in a distribution. What is stopping him from trying out at least 3 different ones (not derivatives of Ubuntu ;-)? If he did, I guarantee he would find some rationalisation in the criticism against Ubuntu!

  15. Pointing out what most Ubuntu howtos use the command line does not make me a basher.

    “YoYo, yo is an idiot.”
    I don’t lower myself to personal attacks. Some jerks do.

    How do you plea?

    1. Because it does not matter what distro you use, difficult problems sometimes require the commandline. Most of those solutions will work with any flavour of Linux.

      Plus, let us logically analyse what you said. Most people here criticise Ubuntu for being too easy and newbie oriented. Yet you are saying it is too complicated because it uses the commandline too much to solve problems. That is just having a go at Ubuntu for the sake of it, which was Manish’s point to start with.

      The Ubuntu forums and HowTos are a fantastic resource. Not everything is correct, but it will nearly always lead to a solution. Ubuntu is no different to Debian, Suse or Fedora in the use of the commanline.

  16. @Manish its called FUD while you cant not under estimate the amount of contribution that companies like Redhat and Novel give to FOSS it would be really unfair to compare little canonical to this huge companies many of who have been there from the very beginning, have an established name in the Enterprise market which translate to millions of dollars in profit. with great power comes great responsibility since Redhat and Novel are the power players of the linux world its just natural that they carry greater responsibility. people judge ubuntu strength by its users and not by its revenue which should be the true yardstick. Redhat makes more money from FOSS in a year than Canonical has made since establishment, so tell me who should carry the bigger burden?

    1. That is an extremely valid point. RedHat has got responsibility to do so. Or they would be called cheaters as they make huge profits. Cannonical is still not reaping profits.

      I see that most of the Ubuntu supports have left. Maybe they have got back to work while more bashing is being done here.

  17. It’s not ubuntu doesn’t contribute upstream, it’s ubuntu doesn’t contribute upstream as they are supposed to. Most of their upstream contributions are rejected because they are simple gui changes or they break other things. This is a fact.

  18. Ubuntu gets bashed because it is the most popular. If openSUSE was the most popular ( GOD forbid ), it would be taking the hits instead. Or any other for that matter.

  19. If all Ubuntu packages are supposedly compiled from source and “stability checked”, then why are for example the MidiSport packages downloaded via Synaptic in a “vanilla” install of Ubuntu broken? That package _isn’t_ broken in Debian unstable. If your disinformation were actually true, then that wouldn’t be the case. But it is. Well that would be because the changes that Upstart causes to the boot process breaks that package, and _obviously_ that package (and numerous other packages) _wasn’t_ tested _at all_ by the Ubuntu devs who supposedly “compiled them from source and stability checked them”… unless by “stability checked” you mean some Ubuntu dev said “it compiled, so it must work, even though I haven’t actually tested for any regressions”.

    Clearly, _you_ don’t know what you’re talking about, GregE. In fact, because Ubuntu devs break so much software is why upstream developers often reject bug reports by Ubuntu users, and instead tell the users to try compiling the original sources. Now sod off with your disproven Ubuntu hype. I’m not buying that snake oil.

    The sum total of Ubuntu’s “contributions” is that they took the money they saved by not actually making _their own_ distro (unlike Redhat, Novell, Debian, etc), but instead continually ripping off the work of the Debian community with _every_ Ubuntu release and rebranding it as Canonical’s “contribution”. Then they spent that money all on hype and PR, handing out free disks, and making a web site with forum software, and getting Ubuntu fanbois to spam the internet with misguided hype about how this most overrated of Linux distros is “the one”. That’s no “contribution” at all. It pales in comparison to what many other distros do.

    Ubuntu is the Windows ME of Linux distros, and ubuntu’s community is a bunch of hype-spouting fanbois who actually think this extremely overrated, misguided repackaging of Debian unstable is something really special for the Linux community. It ain’t.

    1. Wow! You took so much time to write so much?

      >>but instead continually ripping off the work of the Debian community with _every_ Ubuntu release
      So what is the use of releasing it under GPL, if you can’t use the derived works without getting kicked in the back?

      1. And it should be pointed out that the Debian devs do not write the software. RedHat and Novell write a few important programs as does Sun and IBM. BUT most come from the authors on sourceforge or other sites that host the original work. Work that is usually published in source code.

        Everything else is downstream and packaged because of the GPL and it’s offspring. I do not want to bash Debian, especially as I have been using it on and off for more than ten years. I do not criticise Debian or RedHat or Suse for ripping off the work of kernel.org, gnome.org, kde.org, openoffice.org etc because that would be very irrational. Yet that is what is happening here, just one more step. What of Linux Mint? It is derived from Ubuntu. Are they ripping off the work of the Ubuntu devs?

        1. Canonical doesn’t just take upstream sources. They take the _entire_ Debian unstable distro, its package manager, and all the packages in its repositories, _with every single Ubuntu release_, and rebrand it as some sort of Canonical “contribution”. Unlike Redhat, Novell, and many other distro makers, Canonical has never actually made a distro of its own. _Every single Ubuntu release_ is a snapshot of Debian unstable (with some misguided Canonical hacks that cause regressions. Just because I named one specific package, doesn’t mean there aren’t more. Another poster here cited others, but you’re too busy playing “unpaid Canonical salesman” to actually bother checking out the facts. Typical). Period. And yet, here we have clueless Ubuntu fanbois (ie, Linux newbies) who actually think that Canonical contributes a lot to Linux when the company _has never even made its own distro_.

          If something happened to the Debian community tomorrow, then Ubuntu would be no more. Canonical has absolutely no experience making their own distro — they never have done so — and Ubuntu cannot exist without the Debian community doing all the heavy lifting.

          And yes, Linux Mint would obviously be no more either. But then, we don’t have a lot of clueless fanbois running around crowing about how the guy who distributes Linux Mint is doing a whole lot for Linux. Fortunately, unlike Canonical, he doesn’t overhype his “contributions”. And he actually makes it clearly understood on his web page where that distro comes from. He isn’t pretending to be anything more than just one guy who happens to reuse someone else’s distro. Canonical’s web page is too full of its own “fluff PR” about being “Linux for humans” that it can’t be bothered giving proper credit for who does the real “contributing”. That’s why so few Ubuntu fanbois even know how totally lost Ubuntu would be without Debian.

          Ubuntu/Canonical is all smoke and mirrors, paid for with Shuttleworth’s money, which for some misguided reason, he decided would be better spent on free disks, setting up a web forum filled with clueless Linux newbies, free stickers, funding his own self-important PR addiction, and other trivial trash rather than actually using the money to actually “contribute” to Linux, or god forbid, giving back something to the people whose work he rebrands as Canonical’s. That emperor has no clothes.

    2. You go on and on about ONE package. A very specialist package that very few people would use or be able to check. For two years VLC would not play avi video in Debian due to a version confict with ffmpeg, yet the whole time VLC worked perfectly in Ubunbtu. There are 26000 packages, inevitably there will be a few errors.

      It is you who are talking rubbish. Very emotional and angry. We are talking software here, not religion.

      By the way, my Evolutiom MK149 midi keyboard has always worked in Ubuntu Studio. Shortly I will try Studio64 to see if it is any good.

      1. In other words, your Ubuntu propaganda that “all packages are stability checked” (when the package doesn’t even work _at all_) is like all the other Ubuntu PR sales pitches — total BS and hype.

        There is absolutely nothing surrounding Ubuntu and Canonical that isn’t a steaming pile of hype, rhetoric, and PR bluster. Ubuntu is the most overrated linux distro ever released, and Canonical is the most overrated company associated with linux. (That doesn’t mean Ubuntu is bad. After all, it _is_ Debian unstable. On the other hand, Canonical is a pretty worthless company. That just means everything surrounding Ubuntu and Canonical is total BS and hype — like your sales pitches for it).

        Fortunately, not every distro and company associated with linux is like Ubuntu/Canonical. Some actually dabble in things of substance.

        Now I’ll leave you to marvel in awe at Canonical’s first and most “important” linux “contribution”. A little window that slides up to inform you that you have email. Wow! And to think that Sun wasted their time on Open Office!

        1. My last post here.

          You keep harping on about Ubuntu just being Debian unstable. If you had the two side by side you would laugh at yourself. Being based on is not the same as just a copy.

          Ubuntu uses a newer kernel most of the time. Debian testing has only recently moved to 2.6.28, Lenny uses 2.6.26.

          Ubuntu uses Novell’s AppArmor for security, Debian uses SELinux.

          Try and install Nvidia drivers in Debian. In Ubuntu just install nvidia-glx and add Driver “nvidia” to the xorg.conf and restart. In Debian you also have to open a command line and use module assistant and setup the kernel modules before it will work.

          Ubuntu has PulseAudio by default. It has taken a while to get that just right, so far in jaunty I have no issues.

          Plus many more examples.

          You can configure Debian to be just like Ubuntu if you want, with manual updating of kernels and adding and compiling driver modules, altering the installed packages and defaults. Or not bother and just get Ubuntu.

          Mandriva was once just RedHat made up to date and easier to configure. Now they are very different. Sound familiar?

          If you do not like Ubuntu then do not use it. That is the whole point of GNU/Linux. There are hundreds of distros. They all borrow from each other. You think Ubuntu borrows too much, so stick with Debian – no body makes you change.

          Getting angry because Ubuntu gets all the attention is pointless, the attention will not fade away until a new contender takes the crown. No amount of blog entries will have any effect. No amount of Ubuntu bashing is going to make any difference.

          1. Do you actually not know that _each and every_ Ubuntu release starts as a snapshot of the then-current Debian unstable?? You actually think adding a package to Ubuntu’s repository makes it a different distro! I’m not surprised at your lack of knowledge about Ubuntu’s _dependency_ upon Debian unstable. Apparently, Canonical didn’t tell you about that, and you only know what you read on the front page of Canonical’s website. Typical. (And what the hell does Debian testing have to do with anything??? You do _not_ know what you’re blathering about).

            Yes, Mandriva was once a snaphot of Redhat. The key word is “once”. Unlike Canonical, Mandriva has not made a history of rebranding others work as its own “contribution”. Mandriva releases _do not_ start as snapshots of the then-current Fedora. There is nothing “similiar” about Mandriva and Canonical. (And here’s yet another entity that contributes more upstream than Canonical. For shame, Mandriva is a tiny company with less cash and less employees). And in Ubuntu’s case, it’s a “contribution” that is _vastly overhyped_ by ubuntu fanbois such as yourself. Will Canonical _ever_ be capable of making its own distro? Nope. They’ve had years, and Shuttleworth’s millions, to do so, and all they can come up with is 6 month old snaphots of Debian unstable with regressions. Canonical obviously lacks both the talent and manpower. The fact that Canonical and ubuntu fanbois continue to take credit for the work of others, shows how unproductive and dishonest they are. All you’ve given is yet more “examples” of how Canonical takes from the Linux community and has yet to give anything back that is worthy of the Ubuntu hype and exaggerated PR. (And after this blog has gone off on how Ubuntu is as useful to the linux community as Fedora and OpenSuse, you’ve got some nerve citing Pulse Audio and AppArmour. Shame, shame, shame on you).

            I reiterate: Ubuntu and Canonical are all hype, BS, and cheap PR. There’s nothing there that isn’t being bested by many other distros and linux-involved companies. “Getting angry” because someone points this out isn’t “going to make any difference”, Greg. Many of us know better, and we’re going to continue to point out that the Ubuntu emperor has no clothes. Too bad. To quote this very blog: Stop sulking (when people tell the truth about Ubuntu and Canonical), and get a life (hopefully contributing something back upstream worthy of Ubuntu’s unearned hype, which ain’t gonna happen if you’re working for Canonical).

          2. “Do you actually not know that _each and every_ Ubuntu release starts as a snapshot of the then-current Debian unstable??”

            The operative part is starts out as – not finishes as. In your own words. And as I pointed out it also includes much that is in experimental.

            I also pointed out how the final product is quite different, but you do not want to listen, only rant.

            I actually have an Ubuntu Jaunty box and a Debian Squeeze (with some Sid) box sitting side by side. This is how I can note the differences, not just what I read on the net.

      1. It is in multiverse, you have to have that repository active to see it. It is a package to allow older midi keyboards to work.

  20. i have kubuntu 8.10 and mandriva 2009 w. kde4.2 running right now..im typing on the Dell Mini with Kubuntu.. and please let me laugh at all you distro queens, especially the ones that get flustered when someone doesnt like their precious.
    yes, ubuntu fanbois are getting to mac fanboi levels of obnoxiousness.k in early January, I e4.2 running right now..im typing on the Dell Mini with the two distros I am running this month are exactly the same… no difference because they are both using KDE4.
    -trying to claim that one is soooooooooooo much better than another is as pompous as the wine swishers are with booze.

    ‘Ohh look, my distro does this’
    no, they ALL do the same thing if they have the same desktops.

    so go ahead, discuss about how many distros you can fit on the tip of a needle, its nothing more than a techie circle jerk.

    there are enough differences between XCFE, KDE 3, KDE4, E17 and gnome to have some debate but the ones about distros is mindless and nothing more than mindless fanboism where things are black or white.
    I trust flyboy to do right for the Canonical AND community which is more than I can say for Novell and De Icaza. I do blame him for poisoning and destroying the desktop with his claim that there is no way to make money on it.
    Funny, SUSE and Mandriva did it for years concentrating on user friendliness before flyboy ever started his project. Mandriva is actually a publicly traded company so our model should be Mandriva, not hoping for a rich sugar daddy. You can replicate a success if there is a business plan, you cant replicate the daddy warbucks one.
    of course, the fanboi reaction will be ‘Someone insulted our precious. That infidel must die.’
    So flail away, protecting your valiant OS or distro or mp3 player or phone. if your identity is so intertwined with technology, i can understand how this could deeply scar you.

    Here…ill give you a hand…im slightly balding and overweight… you can use that in you flames

  21. I agree with lalala, Most of the things which Ubuntu blots as its features are actually taken from GNOME, just have a look at current feature list.

    Here are some facts about the canonical and Ubuntu.

    1. Compared to RedHat and Novells contribution, the canonical’s contribution is almost NIL.
    2. RedHat and Novell has people who work on Linux kernel. In canonical most people work on GUI and their other tools such as bazaar and launchpad etc.

    Things which I really *HATE* out of canonical.

    1. They don’t treat KDE and GNOME equally. Why the HELL is that? Why is that KDE is always treated as second class citizen ?
    2. From so many releases canonical has been telling about the GUI and theme revamp. Where the heck are they?

    What I like about Ubuntu.

    1. The amount of packages available in repositories. ~Nothing else.~

    Each Linux distro has its own fan base and community, We should not waste our time in fighting with each other.. but whatever, facts are facts!

    1. Raghavendra,
      When you compare facts about RedHat and Canonical, keep in mind their size too! RedHat and Novell are old established companies with a huge workforce.

      Canonical is a relatively new company with less than 100 employees AFAIK. The core developers are not more than 35 and it isn’t reaping heavy profits as the other two.
      It takes time for a company to reach the level of RedHat, once it does, then the comparison would be valid. Fedora is also somewhat second class citizen of RedHat and Firefox for Linux is also a second class citizen of Mozilla. It is impossible to give 100% equal attention to all flavours. It isn’t a communist ideology that everyone should have same number of clothes,same pay etc etc. They give importance based on what they predict has more scope. Done!

      Finally I agree, that we should not fight over distros. Facts are facts and I pointed them out in the original post.

  22. I guess you are just a Ubuntu fan boy jealous that Fedora has more latest software because they develop the software.

    http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_contributions

    Yes, artwork, documentation etc is contributions as well but where is Canonical contributing upstream to any of that? Nothing? Why?

    You just disproved your own assertion that Ubuntu folks dont talk about other distros by trash talking Fedora ambassadors. I can find you tons of posts by Ubuntu fan boys bashing other distributions if you want. Search google.

    1. I am not a Ubuntu fanboy, but yes I do use Ubuntu. I have used Fedora and PCLOS for a bried period of time. OpenSuse too for a small period of time on friend’s laptop.

      If you can find ubuntu fans bashing other distros, then the reverse is not only true but is ten times more than what ubuntu fanboys do.
      I am done with my reasonings. Tried finding time to blog on this topic and now get back to work.

      1. You are just using a lame excuse. Ubuntu fanboys reply to every problem in another distro with a answer to use Ubuntu as if it is something holy. They write blogs about how great “Ubuntu” apps are even if they are just Linux apps that are developed primarily by other distros. You are just a pissed off fan boy who cannot accept that your favorite distro has flaws. Take your own advice and get a gf or something instead of fantasising about your distro.

      2. You are an ubuntu fanboy because of this blog post. You can’t stand anything negative said about your overrated distro.

        1. * I am a user and like it, so what’s the harm in liking?
          * I recommend it to newbies and they like it. What’s the harm?
          * I have converted many windows people to ubuntu. What’s the harm?
          * I do bash Ubuntu for its shortcoming, but its all constructive criticism, not howling as I see you doing right now.

    1. That is what I have been saying so long. Why keep bashing Ubuntu all the time?
      More you bash Ubuntu, it gets more press. The situation is very much like “The Pirate Bay”. 😀

  23. My only piece of advice to Ubuntu is to set some guidelines for their bloggers.
    Please, please stop saying things like “great Ubuntu apps” or “Ubuntu is a great OS”
    That is what annoys me. It is not Ubuntu, it is GNU/Linux, be it KDE, Gnome or whatever. It is not an OS, it is a distro. I accept that this mistake is maybe through ignorance but this is something that turns Linux users against the ubuntu community. Is it arrogance or stupidity or do they not know that the wonder apps are available in every distro’s repos?
    Any chance of this coming to pass or are we going to have every new Ubuntu user starting a blog to praise Ubuntu’s attributes and not even accepting that there are other distros out there that are contributing to the open source community?

    1. I agree to what you say, I also see many newbies writing about Ubuntu and its “Great apps”, but you need to admit that they are justing writing their experiences and how it worked for them. if something doesn’t work they would even spit venom.

      They don’t bash other distros, just write what they find good. The attitude is positive. It may be ignorance which leads to it, but ignorance of other distros means that they are newbies and just shifted here, which is again a good news.

  24. I too am sick of Ubuntu bashing. If it was just simply constructive criticism coming from a Ubuntu user thats fine. If they find a bug, report it so it can get fixed…in other words help move the distro forward.

    One thing I have seen and heard from windows users that know of linux is “why do you guys bash each other”. This does not look appealing from the outside looking in, its a big turn off. When we as a group, act as a group regardless of distrophobic attitudes we will move forward. Continual infighting makes us all look like a joke.

    I am not saying people don’t deserve their opinions far from it, but express them in the right manner and constructively.

    Yes I do use Ubuntu and yes I have used Fedora, Mandrake, Suse plus quite a few others. But I feel Ubuntu is a comfortable fit for my home ecosystem. Yes its not perfect and yes it has bugs, but what doesn’t !!!

    My background starts back with Apple ][, then through many CBM iterations to PC, programming from assembler to pascal and C. I have been round a few years and used many many OS. I like many enjoy programming and tinkering but I just want to install my machine and get it running relatively nicely. I am not afraid of using the terminal in fact it can be quite rewarding sometimes. But for the most time I can’t be bothered and I find Ubuntu a nice fit for me at this time. I continually try new versions of OS to see if they are better fit and work better on my hardware. With four machines here Ubuntu works 99.9% on all machines, I have tried many distro’s and some may work better on one machine but refuse to work on another hence why back to Ubuntu.

    Thats my opinion and I believe I am entitled to it as many others are entitled to theirs. I am so so sick of negativity in our world, so why don’t we all play nice and treat each other the same.

    1. hi, i am a IT student and i am using open socure software. that’s why i want to receive a free CD. thank you! this is my address,W.H.A.Rathnasinghe, Thalammehera, Pannala, North Western province, Sri Lanka.

  25. I am neither English, European nor American.

    I think a lot of knocks of Mark Shuttleworth and Ubuntu stem from a British malady of hating anyone who is too successful Mark started up Thwait at University and when he was 24, sold it for a little under 600 million dollars. Europeans also suffer, but to a lesser extent from this same sickness.

    I would be extremely surprised if many of these negative comments come from Americans who seem to worship success and admire anyone who can beat the system.

    Ampers

    1. What has this to do with nationality? I don’t think this has anything to with perceived national traits or jealousy. It isn’t even to do with shuttleworth.
      This is starting to verge on xenophobia. If you have to resort to posts such as this to back up something then you’ve lost it.

    1. Thanks Tiago,
      More will come up in the future, but none of them will be like this one. As I pointed out, posts like this is the first and the last.

      Future blog posts on development, programming and troubleshooting. Target users: n00bs.

  26. Manish! Where is the release party in India? ILUG-CAL says they may do one in May, but we need more.

    I know its hot, how about a pool party!!

    dan

    1. Dan!
      I am in that part of India where there aren’t much people. We only have students who have been burdened with studies of late.

      I too want to have a pool party with lots of chicks around in bikinis… LOL 😀 (Kidding)

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